Posts by Jeremiah Lee

  • A Paduan
    42

    re: question on the magi

    by A Paduan in
    1. watchtower
    2. beliefs

    i think that i read somewhere that jws believe that the magi who followed the star were 'evil' .

    is that the case - if so how did they figure that?

    paduan

    1. Yadirf
    2. pseudoxristos
    3. capbuster
  • Jeremiah Lee
    Jeremiah Lee

    What is interesting to note, is the fact that God warned the magi in a dream of Herod's plan. Seems to me to be appoving of Christ's worship..cf..Rev5:13. Why give gifts to a baby?!

    Why not knock that star out of the sky anyhow....but yet wait to merely warn the Magi in a dream. Am I the only one seeing this problem here?

    God bless,

    Lee

  • LittleToe
    50

    Should JESUS be worshipped or prayed to?

    by LittleToe in
    1. watchtower
    2. beliefs

    i want to consider this point, free from the trinity / arian debate.

    there have been an abundance of threads that have deteriorated into these doctrine, and it clouds this issue because tempers get raised.. so, please, can we keep it simple.

    should jesus receive our worship, right here, right now?.

    1. Double Edge
    2. mevirginia
    3. Jeremiah Lee
  • Jeremiah Lee
    Jeremiah Lee

    Thanks Little Toe . After having debated christadelphians for so long, one gets used to having to 'overemphasize' things a bit.

    On to the topic...

    Is anyone going to consider my previous scriptural citations on 'prayer to Jesus'?

    God bless you all in the highest, ><>

    Lee

  • LittleToe
    50

    Should JESUS be worshipped or prayed to?

    by LittleToe in
    1. watchtower
    2. beliefs

    i want to consider this point, free from the trinity / arian debate.

    there have been an abundance of threads that have deteriorated into these doctrine, and it clouds this issue because tempers get raised.. so, please, can we keep it simple.

    should jesus receive our worship, right here, right now?.

    1. Double Edge
    2. mevirginia
    3. Jeremiah Lee
  • Jeremiah Lee
    Jeremiah Lee

    What's important to note is that Heb1:6 was originally applied to YHWH. Why would a monotheistic Paul lift this passage directly from the OT as applicable to the Father and in turn apply it to Jesus? Why not just state that the angels worshipped Jesus? Because the 'worship' given in the OT is to be given to the Son in the same way. See again Rev5:13. All of heaven and earth i.e. ALL CREATION are giving TRUE WORSHIP to the Father and Son. Wonderful...

    God bless you,

    Lee

    Edited by - Jeremiah Lee on 13 August 2002 6:1:59

  • Legendary U.2.K.
    89

    Why do so many people believe that jesus is god?

    by Legendary U.2.K. in
    1. watchtower
    2. bible

    i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....

    1. Jeremiah Lee
    2. lv4fer
    3. puzzled
  • Jeremiah Lee
    Jeremiah Lee

    Just before this thread dies out:

    Proverbs8 I agree with. See here http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_AOA.html for a nice essay by JP Holding.

    I believe Jesus was the 'wisdom' of Prov8. However the question to ask is 'why not use the Hebrew words for 'create' i.e. 'bara' or 'asha' over the word 'qanah', which is a more of a verb which implies 'to get'.

    Additionally,

    Begotten~Acts13:33. ;-)

    God bless,

    Jeremiah L.G.

  • LittleToe
    50

    Should JESUS be worshipped or prayed to?

    by LittleToe in
    1. watchtower
    2. beliefs

    i want to consider this point, free from the trinity / arian debate.

    there have been an abundance of threads that have deteriorated into these doctrine, and it clouds this issue because tempers get raised.. so, please, can we keep it simple.

    should jesus receive our worship, right here, right now?.

    1. Double Edge
    2. mevirginia
    3. Jeremiah Lee
  • Jeremiah Lee
    Jeremiah Lee
    G'day Little Toe,

    I'm glad you asked for us to keep our replies simple (and no Trinity!!!!).

    One major consideration that influences me is that. of Jesus, it is said that "all authority and power" has been given him. Now if he's the "main man", then he's logically the one I want to talk to. Seems clear to me.

    Thomas had it right!

    Cheers, Ozzie

    Amen

    God bless,><>

    Lee

  • LittleToe
    50

    Should JESUS be worshipped or prayed to?

    by LittleToe in
    1. watchtower
    2. beliefs

    i want to consider this point, free from the trinity / arian debate.

    there have been an abundance of threads that have deteriorated into these doctrine, and it clouds this issue because tempers get raised.. so, please, can we keep it simple.

    should jesus receive our worship, right here, right now?.

    1. Double Edge
    2. mevirginia
    3. Jeremiah Lee
  • Jeremiah Lee
    Jeremiah Lee
    The account of Stephen speaking directly to Jesus should be taken in context. His words were a consequence of a vision he had where he saw "the Son [Jesus] of man standing at the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55-60 - NJB), so his words were not part of a prayer in the usual sense of the word, but rather a beseeching of the figure he saw before him.

    A beseeching or appeal nonetheless. What do we do specifically so often in prayer? Appeal to, converse. Whether in a vision or in the invisible presence of, is of no difference.

    I cited numerous examples of prayer to Jesus earlier on in the thread. Those must be accounted for as well.

    3.
    >>>John 20:28, where Thomas says "My Lord and my God", must be measured by Jesus words at verse 17:

    "Jesus said to her [Mary], 'Do not cling to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to the brothers, and tell them: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God'" (NJB - see also Revelation 3:12 [Greek 'tou theou mou' = 'the god of-me'])<<<

    Jesus having a 'God' over Him is of no problem. In direct accordence with Phil2:6 Jesus subordinated himself to the Father, taking Him on as 'his God'. Likened unto the 'Angel of YHWH' and the alternate interpretation of "name-bearing" Jesus took on the 'role' of man, in order to save man. Note how Jesus, with the exeption of the model prayer given to the disciples, never refers to the Father as "our God" but always "my God" or "my Father". Jesus is his son by nature, rather than by adoption as are we. Now note the distinction made.

    As for Jn20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto Him, 'My Lord and my God'. i.e. '

    Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou' which literally translates as "The Lord OF me the God OF me". Note how Thomas states this directly to Jesus.

    2.
    >>>Concerning "worship" that is a more involved subject, as we must not simply take the usual English translation as the last word on what it means in every instance. The Greek word often translated "worship" ('proskuneo'), primarily denotes extreme respect and subjection, and according to Strong's Concordance may be derived from the word for 'dog' ('kuon') in the sense of that animal 'licking' (like 'kissing') its master's hand. This same word is used in the Septuagint (LXX - Greek version of the OT) at Genesis 33:3, where Jacob bows ('proskuneo') seven times before his brother Esau, so this word was used appropriately of human beings giving great honour to other human beings, without it constituting 'worship' in the sense that we are accustomed to using it.<<<

    Correct. The Greek word 'proskuneo' can certainly have a broad range of meaning. Needless to say, the word is used as well to denote religious implications. Hence passages like Revelations 19:10 or Acts 7:43 etc...

    Hence it is important to note the context of such passages, in order to derive the proper implications. Wherefore we take ourselves to Rev5:13 where ALL of creation, who are distuished from the Father and Son, are giving THE honor THE praise and THE glory to the Father and the Lamb, THE top honor. Note that there is no distinguishing between the worship, honor etc. given to the Father and Son. It is given equally to both, and properly so..cf..Jn5:18; 23.

    Additionally note the setting, Heaven. Do you really think the angels and elders within the context are performing mere 'obeisance' to God? The context eliminates the potential for a double-standard.

    Thus from Robertson's Word Pictures of the NT:

    And to the Lamb

    ( kai toi arnioi ). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Rev_4:11 and the addition of to kratos (active power) in place of ischus (reserve of strength) in Rev_5:12 .

    God bless you in the highest,

    Lee

    Edited by - Jeremiah Lee on 11 August 2002 8:5:37

  • LittleToe
    50

    Should JESUS be worshipped or prayed to?

    by LittleToe in
    1. watchtower
    2. beliefs

    i want to consider this point, free from the trinity / arian debate.

    there have been an abundance of threads that have deteriorated into these doctrine, and it clouds this issue because tempers get raised.. so, please, can we keep it simple.

    should jesus receive our worship, right here, right now?.

    1. Double Edge
    2. mevirginia
    3. Jeremiah Lee
  • Jeremiah Lee
    Jeremiah Lee

    Jesus WAS prayed to:

    Acts 7:59-60;
    9:13-14,17,21
    ; 1 Corinthians 1:2, 16:22; 2 Corinthians 12:8-9- cf. Genesis
    4:26
    , 12:8; Psalm 31:5; Joel 2:32

    God bless you,

    Lee

    Edited by - Jeremiah Lee on 10 August 2002 6:10:53

  • Swan
    9

    My CoC Book Came Today!

    by Swan in
    1. jw
    2. friends

    my copy of crisis of conscience came today!

    i also got a copy of understanding mind control among jws.

    so far i am very impressed with both of them.

    1. witchywoman
    2. Sentinel
    3. Tanalyst
  • Jeremiah Lee
    Jeremiah Lee

    Where can I get a cheap copy?

    May God guide and keep you, ><>

    Lee